Why do the politicians keep arguing about if this is torture or not? Isn't it pretty clear?!?

Anon

NO! It's not clear! When you have a known terrorist, such as KSM, it is the duty of the government to get any information it can to prevent an attack on US citizens. Torture as a way to punish should not be allowed, but water boarding is mild by historical standards when trying to prevent an attack. By your standards Harry Truman and the recently departed Paul Tibbits would be criminals.

Waterboarding is NOT mild - the US military stopped using it in training because it was too extreme. People who have used it in history are the genocide in Cambodia, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Stalinist Soviet Union. We don't want to follow in their footsteps!!! Simulated drowning is NOT mild!!!

And as for getting information - sure, a terrorist will give information when they're being tortured, but why would they give the correct information? They'd say anything to make it stop! There's still no way to make them tell the truth.

Not mild, compared to what? Beheading? Hanging from a bridge? The 'tell you anything' claim is a myth. Why would they tell the truth? If they want it to stop and not happen again they will give up information that will help us. Either it's terrible and they tell the truth, or it's not so bad and they will lie. You can't have it both ways.

If it's not so bad then why haven't any of the politicians who advocate it been willing to try it? Why did the US military stop using it in training?

"Either it's terrible and they tell the truth, or it's not so bad and they will lie. You can't have it both ways."

That is totally illogical. Why would they only lie if it's not so bad? Your statement that you can't have it both ways is not backed up in fact. Why wouldn't they lie about something that is terrible? This makes no sense.

OK, OK! You can have it both ways! You are right and the President was wrong in the 1990s to authorize torture and extreme rendition. We wouldn't want to make any bad guys uncomfortable, would we?

I'm just saying that your point makes no sense - why would they only lie if it's not so bad? Why wouldn't they lie if it was bad?

Why would they lie at all?

I saw an interview of Paul Tibbits on CSPAN recently. Now that he's dead, they will play it again. He told about an incident in the Manhattan Project when they found a spy in Chicago. The FBI told him they followed the spy to a park, where he met his German contact. They shot them both and dumped the bodies in an alley. That was under FDR - a democrat. I'm wishing Paul God-Speed. He saved my father’s life.

Whamo9f, your story sounds implausible. If the FBI had identified two German spies, wouldn't the try to get more information? They trailed the first to the second; why didn't they follow the second to try to find out what contacts he had? Was he a controller running several spies? Was he an intermediary they could have followed to the ringleader? Why not apprehend both and torture them for information? Summary execution makes no sense.

It's not my story. It belongs to General Paul Tibbets and was told on C-Span. Watch for it for yourself and see if it seems credible. I'm sure that with his death at age 92 last week, they will be showing it again soon. I believe it because it was consistent with stories my father told me about his experiences in the Navy during WWII. BTW, I just found a document that shows my father crossed the International Date Line on July 28, 1945 which would have placed him about 800 miles east of Japan when Tibbets flew the Enola Gay over Hiroshima. I'm not condemning anyone from that time. But if you want to condemn Bush then you also have to condemn FDR, Truman, and all those from the “Greatest Generation” who won the Big One.

You can't compare World War II to the "war in Iraq" (which isn't an actual war because there was never a formal declaration and defies the constitution but thats another matter all together). Waterboarding is torture, period, there is no debate on that subject, and the Geneva Convention defines waterboarding or any act which makes the victim believe that he is going to die as torture. Those who support torture to get information from those who wish to harm us should think about what sort of example this is to the rest of the world, namely those groups that reject western culture, and what those groups would do to us if we were captured by their government. I believe that the Bush administration and the media have been successful in making America more afraid of everything than any society has ever been before. I mean we can't even pick up hitchhikers anymore because everyone's a rapist, murderer, terrorist or thief. But are people really that different from the people of the 60s where hitchhiking was commonplace? Or has the media made everyone more afraid of their neighbor now than ever before? Yes there are terrorists in the world, there will always be and always has been, but should Americans live in constant fear of them and should we torture people and hold them captive without fair trials out of constant fear? I say we need to think about what Jesus would do and take the higher moral ground. (I'm an agnostic but I find it really strange that the "religious right" seems to support torture much more than the less religious left. Not to mention that they believe in capital punishment... didn't they learn anything from Jesus who died by capital punishment? Is one death of a Jesus worth a billion deaths of Charles Mansons? I say no!)

"If it's not so bad then why haven't any of the politicians who advocate it been willing to try it?"

Is this statement a joke? There have many forms of torture behind the scenes in every war that the U.S. has been involved in and who's to say that countless lives were not spared because of these interrogation methods. Are you suggesting that FDR, Truman and others should have gone through the same torture before authorizing it's use?

If one terrorist has to endure even extreme torture so that we don't have another 9/11 then by all means go ahead. I lost a very close loved one in the twin towers on 9/11 and those comments offend me.

"they learn anything from Jesus who died by capital punishment?"

Do you truly think that the son of the living God was murdered without letting it happen? Are you suggesting that he couldn't have stopped it any time? If you knew of Jesus' mission then you wouldn't suggest such a example of why we shouldn't allow capitol punishment. The Atonement of the Savior should not be used as support of such arguments. For the sake of our children, we should stop destroying the America that I love!

Anonymous, which is worse? ...a well known terrorist who has only one priority in life, and that is being hell bent on killing me, my wife, my children, my mother and father, my friends, in a most gruesome and horrific fashion; my way of life, everything that I have come to love and trust, my country, my government, our soldiers and their families, ; OR A known terrorist gets some water up his nose for a few seconds and THINKS that he may just die....

What if one of those poor innocent souls that had to make a conscious and immediate decision to jump to their inevitable deaths from 1000 feet up at the World Trade Center Towers, because terrorists decided to fly jets into them with more innocent people aboard, could have possibly been one of your family members? My thinking is that you love them very much, so that makes me lean towards the water boarding...but you know what? That would mean that the terrorist would possibly suffer some fright, or "mental trauma." Why should the rights of a religious fanatic FAR outweigh the safety and security of your family members?

I think these comments smear and insult the memories of all the people who have given or lost their lives because of these fanatics.

In regards to the water boarding, you can't say "there is no debate on that subject," simply because you believe differently? Just because the Geneva Convention says that they deem it as torture, doesn't mean that they are correct. I know of no one, nor any group that is right 100% of the time.

One other thing, I find it unproductive to stand up against this, and yet offer no other plan, idea, option, notion, alternative, etc.

Let us move on...crime in this country, as well as how people treat and respect(or lack thereof) each other is NOT the same as it was in the 60's. I remember when I was a young child growing up in the early 60's, the children ran all around the neighborhood, unsupervised, with not a care or worry in the world. Nor did our parents worry, because people USED to be civilized, and looked out for one another. You didn't have to worry about a murderous sociopath or a child predator doing harm to you, your children, or your friends and neighbors.

As far as your statement about us "setting an example for the other countries," I believe that our 10's of gabillions of taxpayer dollars in aid, helping to rebuild countries, assisting in the education and well being of most of the countries on this earth, not to mention the millions of lives given by our families and loved ones to insure the freedom of much of this world, as well as your right to free speech, pretty much sums it up.

Let me get this straight....you can shoot and kill a suspect or wound him to the point where he suffers a protracted, painful death. But pretending to drown them for 60 seconds is off limits. Just outstanding. Listen up clowns...If the torture of one person can save thousands of lives I'm for it all the way. What's the alternative to torture? Saying pretty please.

This is in response to the anonymous poster who who boldly claimed that the war in Iraq isn't constitutionally a war; to the poster who also asked what Jesus might do (which is absurd, because this same poster is an agnostic).

Do you realize the importance of proof reading your posts prior to submitting them? You said some foolish things. I'll start with the war "not being a war". What does it matter? Are you also a supporter of the Clinton defense of defining the word "is"?? I'd bet so. First, the war in Iraq is a war (I'm obliged to help you out with that one). I have first hand knowledge of seeing rounds fired, and vehicles exploding. It's a war (and don't give me some ridiculous explanation of how congress never sanctioned it). Soldiers engaged in open conflict defending our people, or people of a suppressed nation is a solid definition of war.

And by the way, any idea why our country hasn't been attacked since September 11, 2001? I'll help you out with that....it's because our Soldiers are at war in Iraq taking the fight TO the insurgents, terrorists, and organizations that would have otherwise attacked our country again. The war in Iraq serves two purposes: 1) It's liberating a country that has been suppressed for 40 years by a tyrant leader and 2) It's keeping the fight on foreign soil. Homeland defense is moving in the right direction, but it certainly isn't the reason that our America hasn't been attacked for the past 6 years.

I won't even respond to your religious misquotes. God did, however, ordain capital punishment. Read the Bible, you might be the better for it.

Torture – Depends on whose position you take, is it correct?

From my view it is wrong, you cannot hold the moral high ground if your country tortures people. If I was for torture then during the 70’s 80’s and 90’s I believe that every American who gave a dollar to the “Irish Cause” should be tortured to see if they have information about Irish terrorists who Americans were happy to fund. If we condone torture to find out information about future terrorist events then a whole lot of Americans should have been waterboarded, just in case they knew anything to save lives in England and Northern Ireland. It is so strange that only after 9/11 did Americans stop supporting the Provisional Irish Republican Army, and soon enough peace was restored. One man's terrorist is another Man's Freedom fighter. torture is wrong.

If national security is at risk then take whatever means necessary to protect it. Otherwise, people like my uncle who was a WWII POW at Chikko for 4 years fought and died for nothing. What about the Hanoi Hilton, ask those survivors what they endured. Oh yeah, Vietnam wasn't technically a war either. I live in the real world and torture has gone on since the beginning of time. It won't stop now so take off the rose colored glasses. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if things like this didn't happen! Our Military has fought and died for the freedom we have. Until you've walked in their shoes don't criticize their tactics.

Torture is not fair, and we must find out other methods, no more torture, no more war

Morals have no place in WAR. When your enemy is not bound by rules and directives on what they can or cannot do to us, then we are unarmed. If we limit the ability to win by any means necessary, then we are set up for failure. When you are in a struggle for your life, you do not hesitate to do all that you can do to survive.

Torture is a necessary evil. There are no rules for war when you get down to it, how ludicrous. You say no torture, no war, why don't you say no divorce, no rapes, no stealing, no, no, no, ......Perhaps if you lived in a society where you had no rights you would feel differently.

Come on people. First, nobody wants to think about the tactics that are used to get information. We only know about a few. Do you think this is the worst that's done? Are we the only country that interrogates prisoners? Ask Daniel Pearl's family. I agree with Lakota, let's just ask Pretty Please and they will spill their guts. Ain't gonna happen. We do these things because we are trying to save many other lives, yours, mine, our children, heck any one of us can get caught in the crossfire and then once you have first hand knowledge I bet your tune will change. I also love it when people conveniently use religion. What would Jesus do? I tell you what he might do, he would try to educate the terrorist on the right path. If he chooses the "dark side" then he has to suffer the consequences, however rough they might be. That's just payback, Karma, whatever you want to call it.

The Iraq war was the result of 911. Bush and Cheney figured the American people were thirsty for revenge and it fit right in with his desire to "get" Saddam. It was going to be "a piece of cake"! Only it wasn't. This stupid man (Bush) can't even pronounce nuclear. Or he's too stubborn to acknowledge the truth. That terrorists are out to get us is pure paranoia. Bush and his crowd are using this paranoia to further their unjust causes. Of course warerboarding is offensive to right thinking Americans. It's the let's get them before they get us crowd that believe that having our youth slaughtered is OK as long as it is not in America.

If no one knew about it, I'd go for it. But right now there is a public debate which the whole world sees. haha. Of course, the wisest thing to do is vote it down..make it illegal.

Now should the congress legalize it, the rest of the world will use it on our guys!!! This would make our guys less safe, and our own secrets less secure.

Therefore, our laws can never reflect a legalization of torture although, it must be used when necessary, covertly and illegally.

Ban war and guns, first. Enforce this law and then worry about enforcing no-torture laws. :)

Two questions:

1. No one has explained why people being tortured are guaranteed to tell the truth. Why they wouldn't just say ANYTHING to make the torture stop? Which many psychologists agree would hapen.

2. How are we saying waterboarding is OK when we were 100% against it when the Japanese did it to our troops in World War II?

And yes, I agree that the people claiming to follow Jesus (and I am one of them) should look at what Jesus' methods were.